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3 comments

  1. § David Ulmer Email said on :
    "I don’t want to confuse this with our salvation- which is never by our own works, but only through faith- but faith without works is dead."

    When you say this you seem to be saying the entire discussion of sanctification is based on one premise, "faith alone". The difficulty you see in having a clear harmony in the scriptures is that scripture doesn't teach faith alone. Faith, yes, but not faith alone. Grace alone. Christ alone, but justification is not by faith alone clearly stated in James 2.

    Obedience is actually how we come to Christ. Faith is one aspect of that obedience. Romans begins and ends with describing the obedience of faith. We are commanded to listen, to believe, to repent, to walk in righteousness, love, forgive, etc. Faith is a work of obedience. It is an act of the will that has been set free by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Clearly, we are saved by grace alone through faith, through repentance, through following Christ, abiding in Christ, submitting to His will, etc.

    It also seems as though you believe that salvation is a moment alone. Conversion as a process allows for moments of transformation but "moment alone" does not allow for a process.

    Three people are looking at a boat from three different angles, one is red, one is blue and the top is white. One person says the boat is red, one says the boat is blue, and one says the boat is white alone. Which person's statement is untrue? This is the mistake of so many Christians today. They start with a presupposition that is untrue and try to make the rest of reality fit their view.

    Salvation is not to be limited erroneously either. The truest definition of salvation, its most definitive form is a person, Jesus Christ. he is our Salvation. Defining salvation as only a moment is like defining marriage as just the wedding day or the climax of consumation. It encompasses so much more, because it involves people. Relationship is dynamic. Salvation is about a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    I hope my tone is appropriate. I admire your love for Christ and desire to know him more.

    Your brother in Christ,
    David
  2. § David Ulmer Email said on :
    Heb 5:8-9
    Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
    RSV

    Faith is obedience, just like love, forgiveness, repentance, etc.

    Rom 1:4-5
    Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
    RSV
    Rom 16:26
    26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith -
    RSV

    It is true that our works don't save us, just as our faith doesn't save us. It is Christ alone that saves us. We come to be in Him through obedience, so no one can boast. We simply obey.

  3. § the zim® Email said on :
    Thanks, David, for your eagerness to discuss this important topic.

    I didn't mean to imply that "entire discussion of sanctification is based on one premise, 'faith alone'." I agree that salvation is by Christ and his grace alone, and faith is the gift we received as a result. From our perspective, faith seems like the means by which we were saved (because we cannot see who has been saved) but the actual work of salvation is through Christ.

    The guarding statement, that you quote, was to discourage the conflation of justification and sanctification- which it sounds like you are doing. Please correct me if I am wrong, but you say, "Obedience is actually how we come to Christ."

    I could agree with that statement if we are talking about Christ's obedience (his alien righteousness imputed to us) but not agree if you are referring to any righteousness on our part. Our righteousness is like dirty rags and could never make us acceptable to God. Jesus puts it different- why should we get an extra reward for only doing what we should have been doing in the first place. I have already waxed eloquently about this in my discussion of the Heidelberg Disputations.

    The verses you quote in your second comment, although they do connect faith and obedience they never equate faith and obedience as related to salvation. Of course faith influences obedience, but that is a separate issue than our justification.

    You also cite me saying that I claim that salvation is only a moment rather than a "process." Actually Hoekema addresses the different tenses of salvation in his article in this book better than I could state myself. You might check it out.

    Your tone is "appropriate." Thanks for engaging this topic.

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